HW-bans. Just thinking the future of it....

[mcMike]

I think eventually PB will lose the war when it comes to HW-bans.

Originally the EULA from EB was that if you directly inteference with PB-files they will lift HW-bans.
Apparently they have greatly stretched this interreption lately. Most of the recent mass-bans in AAO and BF2 are HW-bans without directly violating original EULA.

Let's think about this in the long term. Since the combination of HW is not banned but instead every single individual piece of it we now have thousands and thousands of banned HDD's , thousands and thousands of banned motherboards with onboard NIC,
thousands and thousands of banned soundcards with integrated firewire etc. These hardware are sold to second hand to "innocent" gamers. Since individual HW is banned the amount of HW-bans will actually get bigger and bigger if HW is sold to different people.

These gamers who bought or somehow got the banned-HW will try they favourite games just to get "you are HW-banned"-message from PB.
Some will contact to game publisher some directly to EB only to realise they have banned-HW which they have nor can do anything.

What will GAME PUBLISHERs think?

Client:"I contacted EB and they told me I have banned hardware in my computer. They said something about cheating but this is my first computer and I don't understand what they said. Only thing I understood is that I cannot play any games I bought so hopefully I can return them? I also understood I can't play any new games you are publishing in the future..."

Starting to see the big-picture?

Very soon we are at the point where game-publishers start losing money because of EB's policy. Wanna quess which the publishers care more; the cheating or the money?

[tamimego]

Well I must say mcMike its nice to see someone with such a highly re-nouned name,
supporting and still keeping contact with the MPC Cheating Community.
You have made some wonderful releases such as WinInject and have always been there
to look out for the community, sorry if I went off topic but just putting in my 'Two Cents'.

[Spontaneous]

Well actually the latest group of global bans was for hacks that interfered with PB indirectly.

BUT I do agree with you. Sooner or later, the hw bans are going to bite EB in the butt in the long end.

[Nseven]

Originally the EULA from EB was that if you directly inteference with PB-files they will lift HW-bans.

Apparently they have greatly stretched this interreption lately. Most of the recent mass-bans in AAO and BF2 are HW-bans without directly violating original EULA...

.. and today hwbans are used to "reduce" cheating in a game and not to "protect" PB.
Thats what I call "abuse of hardware bans".

But losing the war ? Don't think so. PB will just say "we are not responsible/not our fault if you buy hwbanned hardware", but I agree game developers will not like this. Btw. everytime someone is releasing public spoofer or sources they improve their "spyware kerner driver". But thats not my point here.

Since you can get hwbanned even if you do not interfere with PB's operation, I see no reason anymore why we should not create hacks which hack pb directly. Those kind of hacks/spoofer for hardware banned people ONLY

[gil]

YEAH!, PB Hacks are the solution.
Editing packets will solve it all.

[shortbus]

I think eventually PB will lose the war when it comes to HW-bans.

Originally the EULA from EB was that if you directly inteference with PB-files they will lift HW-bans.
Apparently they have greatly stretched this interreption lately. Most of the recent mass-bans in AAO and BF2 are HW-bans without directly violating original EULA.

Let's think about this in the long term. Since the combination of HW is not banned but instead every single individual piece of it we now have thousands and thousands of banned HDD's , thousands and thousands of banned motherboards with onboard NIC,
thousands and thousands of banned soundcards with integrated firewire etc. These hardware are sold to second hand to "innocent" gamers. Since individual HW is banned the amount of HW-bans will actually get bigger and bigger if HW is sold to different people.

These gamers who bought or somehow got the banned-HW will try they favourite games just to get "you are HW-banned"-message from PB.
Some will contact to game publisher some directly to EB only to realise they have banned-HW which they have nor can do anything.

What will GAME PUBLISHERs think?

Client:"I contacted EB and they told me I have banned hardware in my computer. They said something about cheating but this is my first computer and I don't understand what they said. Only thing I understood is that I cannot play any games I bought so hopefully I can return them? I also understood I can't play any new games you are publishing in the future..."

Starting to see the big-picture?

Very soon we are at the point where game-publishers start losing money because of EB's policy. Wanna quess which the publishers care more; the cheating or the money?



Not trying to flame but I disagree. Known rampent cheating will hurt sells of games alot more then some poor sucker buying used banned hardware imho.

[XR8]

I tend to agree with Mcmike , sooner or later innocent people will end up with banned hardware (that they have just bought ) and are going to wonder why they cant play online games and will want to return there games for a refund.
Ive been hardware banned once and my number one rule now is DONT GET H/W BANNED AGAIN.
It would be interesting to know how many ppl globally have had there hardware banned ?? Would i be right in assuming that it would be in the thousands ?? Maybe more.

Cheers .XR.

[InSaNe_J]

Sorry if these questions have been answered but i dont know much about the hardware bans. What are all the possible parts they ban on the computer, is there something they ban that cant be fixed, and would a new net card help with anything?

[BlackDove]

Every time I read one of these threads, it creates an image of an Even Balance employee printing a web page out and adding it to a porfolio.

Game companies will not discontinue supporting ant-cheat software just because innocent users may receive bans. Think of how many more copies of the game are purchased from users who wish to have their Global GUID bans removed. Developers like money. If anything, a statement would be issued by developers recommending that users buy new parts instead of purchasing used parts from uknown fellow consumers. "Get an accurate user history of the E-bay seller before buying a hard drive next time."

One possibility that may stop hardware bans is human error. A large database of banned hardware GUIDs must exist. Such a database is prone to space limits, corruption, data loss, and anything of that sort. A decision may one day be made that hardware bans are more difficult to maintan that they're worth.

I see no reason anymore why we should not create hacks which hack pb directly.

You might as well move to Texas and fill out an application. Most companies pay for bug testing.

InSaNe_J: do some searching on this forum before posting. There have been tons of topics on this (including in this section).

[RuffianSoldier]

Game devolopers need to come to there senses...
Simple as this:
Make their own anticheat software - I mean, they are making the game - they should know the easy ways to hook into it....
And if they do make their own they can choose if they want to HW ban people.

I think companies who choose to include PB in their game are making a very bad decision. The developer should be the one choosing who gets banned not a third party company i.e. EB.....
Some though, might say "Well I choose to use PB because I dont want anyone affiliated with cheating playing the game I am developing"

This is why I respect VAC - Its made by Valve, and Valve makes the games....

Also, you can tell when a game developer chooses to use PB they are being lazy - if they were really commited they would make their own anticheating system....

[mcMike]

Not trying to flame but I disagree. Known rampent cheating will hurt sells of games alot more then some poor sucker buying used banned hardware imho.

I see your point and agree. The publisher is not YET bothered but it's all about numbers.

My point was that with current HW-ban lifting frequency the "critical mass" IS reached someday - not if.

Let's speculate that 10.000 ppl get HW-ban. They have average of 2 HDD +1 NIC. Thats 3 piece of banned HW which are sold. Let's continue speculating that HW is sold to different buyers separately. We now have 30.000 HW-banned computers unable to play ANY PB-game now nor in the future. Since multiplayer-games typically requires you to have valid CD-key we assume that they need valid licence. Gamers buying 2 titles / year that's 60.000 copies / year NOT SOLD because of HW-ban. Publisher get maybe $20 for a copy so that's OVER 1.000.000$ PER YEAR lost profit for game-publisher.

Now, that WAS a very WILD and OVERESTIMATED speculation - for purpose. My point is that THERE IS a level where HW-ban will turn against itself - just a question of what that number is. I think we all agree that for losing 60.000 games/year sells the game-publiser WILL have an issue with HW-bans. For 1000 games/year they propably don't care. Pick a number between those...

Please try to see my point. I am not against bans (well, not true - I am actually ;)) - I am against especially HW-bans because they affect innocent people. Not only via sold HW but also via spoofed serials. Unfortunately I got around 15 innocent HDD's & MAC's banned during last evening only.

I am curious to know what for example EA's PR-department would reply to client who suddenly realises his HW is banned without he having anything to do about it. (Or better yet - what if that happens to some online-gaming sites editor? - can anyone supply me certain HDD-serial? ;) ). In current world of bad-PR it only takes one well written story to online-news. Actually I am even more curious to know how EA has accepted this policy in the first-place:

EA:" We need anti-cheat software since we heard that wild cheating in BF will lose customers for us"
EB: "Yeah. We have a product for you. "
EA: "Nice. What it does"
EB: "Well, to put it simple we BAN the cheaters once and all"
EA: "Gee, sounds nice. We take it"
...some time passes...
EA:"We have had lots of feedback from our customers telling that they have not cheated but can't play the game anymore. I quess there can be some mistakes though. Well, thats only good. Now they will buy our new title more eagerly..."
EB: "Well. They can't."
EA: "what?"
EB: "Yes. Since their HW is banned they can't play ANY of your new nor old games with PB not now or never .. (evil laugh)..."
EA: "Errr...?"
EA (boss): "Hey Tony, how did that new anti-cheat-whatever it was increased our net-income? It was frigging expensive so you better have good numbers!"

Here's the final thing. Cheating reduces sells. True. Using Anti-cheat software will increase sells. How much - is only speculation. GUID-banning CAN increase sells if we assume that cought players will buy new CD-key. HW-banning will only DECREASE sells - NEVER increase. The AC-players who are concerned about cheating will be happy with PB and kicks - or does someone actually think those people "need/want" PB with HW-bans?. That increasing number of banned HW pieces around means less and less potential customers.

[RuffianSoldier]

Not all people can just drop money on new hardware - so if they get banned, they will just not play PB servers let alone buy new games until they have enough money to buy a new PC.... at least thats what has happend with the people that I know who have been HD banned
Same thing goes for new GUIDs.... not everyone can buy a new 50 dollar game every time they get banned...

So ya, I agree with mcMike

[mcMike]

Game companies will not discontinue supporting ant-cheat software just because innocent users may receive bans.

This is true but was not my point. Of course they will not stop using ac-software but they might rethink the HW-ban idea.

The more I think about the current HW-ban the more stupier the idea start to look (in a point-of-view for game-publisher). They are using methods to decrease number of their potential customers. Since the ban for individual HW is not ever removed it will stay banned as long as it's used. ( ~5 years easily untill it's obsolote).

The HW-ban might be workable solution IF they could identify the user more precicly. (i.e. combination of several different HW-id's). The current implementation about individual banned HW's is just stupid and WILL affect more and more innocent people. I am confident that will eventually raise the interst of game-publisher.

I hate comparisons and even more stupid comparisons but here goes anyway: what if you cheated in icohockey and referee would BAN your skates? You'd sell those skates to somebody and next time he tries to go match referee tells him" Sorry pal. Your right skate is banned - oh wait a sec so is your left one. You cannot use those skates in ANY game where me or my pal is referee - ever. Some dude did a dirty trick with those skates in a game 2 years ago. Sooo to make sure he don't ever do it again we banned his skates."

[n()()b_Power]

This is true but was not my point. Of course they will not stop using ac-software but they might rethink the HW-ban idea.

The more I think about the current HW-ban the more stupier the idea start to look (in a point-of-view for game-publisher). They are using methods to decrease number of their potential customers. Since the ban for individual HW is not ever removed it will stay banned as long as it's used. ( ~5 years easily untill it's obsolote).

The HW-ban might be workable solution IF they could identify the user more precicly. (i.e. combination of several different HW-id's). The current implementation about individual banned HW's is just stupid and WILL affect more and more innocent people. I am confident that will eventually raise the interst of game-publisher.

I hate comparisons and even more stupid comparisons but here goes anyway: what if you cheated in icohockey and referee would BAN your skates? You'd sell those skates to somebody and next time he tries to go match referee tells him" Sorry pal. Your right skate is banned - oh wait a sec so is your left one. You cannot use those skates in ANY game where me or my pal is referee - ever. Some dude did a dirty trick with those skates in a game 2 years ago. Sooo to make sure he don't ever do it again we banned his skates."


I personally see your point .. its logical. But the implementation of HW bans was talked about with large companies and its reprocutions were discussed just like anything else. In the big picture we as cheaters are a very minimal in population compared to those who dont cheat whatsoever. Thus the game-publisher will not even bat there eye at a few thousand HW bans. There are still a hundered thousand players out there that can and will continue to play just fine. (Theoretical numbers givin but ratio in proportion) I feel there is nothing that will ever come of this.

[mcMike]

I personally see your point .. its logical. But the implementation of HW bans was talked about with large companies and its reprocutions were discussed just like anything else. In the big picture we as cheaters are a very minimal in population compared to those who dont cheat whatsoever. Thus the game-publisher will not even bat there eye at a few thousand HW bans. There are still a hundered thousand players out there that can and will continue to play just fine. (Theoretical numbers givin but ratio in proportion) I feel there is nothing that will ever come of this.

Hello. Well, first of all you're right about this "ranting/thinking loudly" won't lead anywhere - at least not in here. Also I would like to point out that I don't talk about this issue because I am HW-banned. I was but since it's so easy to get around it's not issue for me personally. I just wanted to make some conversation to see if people have any interesting perspective.

I don't fully agree with you here. I don't believe game companies have had any discussion about "ground-rules" for banning. It's not like EA one day thought "Hey, we need to do something about this cheating". Nope. They wouldn't care less about cheating - only about sales. It was EB who did their marketing-job. They propably have done some research/estimation and went to EA and told them "You would lose xxx-number of customers if you don't do something about cheating and we just happen to have product for that".
Then EA (or pick some other company using PB) did some research and calculations on their own before decided to invest AC-product.
EB introduced their software and explained the methodology of it.
1) When we detect cheat we kick user for 2 mins
2) If we dedect the cheat inteferences to our product directly we GUID-BAN. This means your client needs to purchase new CD-key or licence for game. Isn't that nice. You get MORE money because cheaters need to buy new CD-key?

Sounds good so far for game-publisher. But I am truly wondering if EB did even introduce the third ban (hw) at this stage (or atleast HOW they did it)? I am an old schooler and I do have some background/insider knowledge about this issue so I believe I know what I'm talking about.

There is just no way HW-bans could be laid on the table in way publisher would not have an issue with them.

EB: "And then we have this last option. We reserve the right to permanently terminate license to use our software for any reason or no reason at all"

EA: "Ummh. Sounds harsh. Whats that mean?"

Do you think EB said:
a) "It's nothing you need to worry about. Your client can still play the game in any public-server - just not in servers with our software. You are legally covered."

b) "We permanently ban individual parts of cheaters HW when we feel to do it. If your client accidentally purchases any of banned HW , or if we have mistakenly banned his HW he is not able to play (i.e. won't buy) any game from you with our software - not now or in the future.

Anyways. I think that's is enaugh about this issue. Thanks for opinions fellas.

[gil]

I agree with mcMike here.
There is nothing logical in HW banning when you look on the finance side.
I don't need to add anything, because mcMike already pointed it all.

And as he also mentioned, even with HW bans, cheaters wont leave.
So it only hurts the sales and such. It will even hurt a game, because the cheater CAN come back, and even more pissed and he can will do anything to show that PB sucks.

[mikus]

i recently got guid banned, guess what? ea got more money out of me.

i personally disagree with the ethics involved in hardware bans. they are wrong, all the points mcmike pointed out are valid.

i personally think it's only a matter of time til ea (or any other game devs) decicde to drop 3rd pary anti cheat software. theres nothing really special about pb im sure dice could develop anti cheat software just as good.

to me, pb come accross as an arrogant bunch of people who don't care about individuals (innocent ones) to them, it's just "another cheater caught"

im sure the convo between ea and eb would go something like this:
ea: "we need some anti cheat software"
eb: "we have the solution, our software catches 100's of people a month and issues them a permanent ban"
ea: "yeah? sounds good"
*ea looks into pb*
ea: "we heard we would loose alot of sales due to hardware bans?"
eb: "yes, the cheaters will not be able to buy your software ever again. we are slowly weeding out cheeters"
ea: "oh, sounds good, we will take it"

eb would never directly say that the cheaters hardware can get other people banned they will never admit that thier software is extreme and causes alot of inocent people problems where they are just considered "ban #x"

[dolosus]

Devs and publishers do not care if EB bans people. Do you think they do not know that this is going on? If they did not like the policy they would simpy pick up the phone and tell EB to discontinue their policy of HW bans or they will drop their contract. Its really that simple. You seem to forget that all of these companies PAY EB to remove cheaters from their games, and Im sure they pay hansomely. You bring up several points- lost revenue for game makers. Dont forget to include in your math new consumers, there is no finite number of potential customers. They could ban 100000 cheaters there will be more than 100000 potential customers to replace them. The devs do not want cheaters, to them, cheaters ruin the games. Why would they care if I cant buy a future product when I have already shown that I do not "play fair" and that I do not care about them, the people who run servers, or other players. Remember, there will be one or more other new customers out there to take my place.
Used banned hardware.- Well, I would be pissed if I bought it, but who should you really be pissed at? EB will say tough, the devs/publishers will say, that is unfortunate, but we cannot help you. Who do you blame for that- the person who sold you the hardware of course. That is what EB and the devs/pubs will tell you. You mention hockey skates, a stick is a better analogy. If someone sells you a stick with an illegal curve but you do not know it and you get caught using it, you will be getting the penalty. The ref wont say "Gee, since you didnt know about it its ok" Again blame the guy who sold it to you.
Dev created anticheats. - AC is an ongoing job, just like cheat creating. Most devs are not going to spend the time, money and resources internally to battle the powers at MPC and other places. Where is the money in that for them? They will leave that to some AC and keep doing what they do, creating games. Only Valve seems to want to invest in that, but Valve wants to be the all powerful game developer, the M$ of gaming, but thats another story.
I dont think we should sit and ponder the future of HW bans. They are likely here to stay, others ACs will do the same, its not going away, but then again, neither are cheaters. Its a fact of gaming.

I think some of us are hoping that this will just go away, its not going away.

[mikus]

your missing the point, cheaters will continue cheating period people who buy banned hardware won't know how to evade hw bans and never play on pb enabled servers..

[dolosus]

I thought the point was that hardware banning is self defeating? Im just arguing that it really is not. I know cheaters will cheat, but not all cheaters know how to or can buy parts to get around the bans. Those will move to other games, likely non pb. The ppl who get stuck with banned HW are never going to amount to a number high enough to be a real issue for EB or the devs, it will always be blamed on a dishonest seller.
Your right though, there will be cheaters no matter what, there will be cheaters, but I don tthink anyone thinks you can stopp them all.

[mcMike]

Dont forget to include in your math new consumers, there is no finite number of potential customers. They could ban 100000 cheaters there will be more than 100000 potential customers to replace them.

I don't see logic in that. First you say that there is NO finite-number of playing-seats available but then you talk about new potential customers to "replace" someone. There is the markets and new customers and there is the banned HW-items that reduces that market. Banned HW will in no-case increase markets - only decrease. Every new HW-ban means one or more less customer for ANY PB-enabled game. Say HDD's + NIC's are sold to separate ppl and those ppl buying 2-3 new titles / year. Thats easily 10 sold titles less PER YEAR.

And what is the real net-effect? The cheaters will get rid of banned HW (sell to innocent ppl) and grab new gear and CONTINUE cheating. = NOT A SINGLE CHEATER LESS BUT 10x less titles sold in EACH YEAR.

You mention hockey skates, a stick is a better analogy. If someone sells you a stick with an illegal curve but you do not know it and you get caught using it, you will be getting the penalty.

There is no logic in that analogy either. Illegally curved stick is illegally curved no matter who uses it. HDD or NIC is not illagal if it lands to hands of player who has never cheated. And what about those spoofed serials which gets your HDD/NIC banned without buying it anywhere?

[2FACETANNER]

I agree HW bans will not last forever. I think this is the only weapon against us (haxors) because in the past all we got was a kick from a server and we just corrected the problem and emerged victorious. But now a single mistake is no longer a kick it is a HW ban. It would be awesome if someone releases a hax which HW bans people, then you can ban millions of innocent people for no reason. Then PB will have to remove HW bans because there will be no more players to "spy" on.

[--RioT--]

I agree with most of your points however i don't think PB are going to care if innocent people get banned. Just as other corporations don't care if they put millions of hard working employees out of work. I don't think they are too concerned about the whole people not buying PB games cause theyre banned, because their are more AC than cheaters. Anyway, i too am hardware banned. I'm just waiting for Evenbalance to get whats coming to them.

[A.Wesker]

well if HW bans are going to cause aggrovation for EB because innocent people are being penalized
then speed up the the sales of banned hardware guys

I sold my 2 HDDs & 1 NIC cheap on a gaming site
so basically that makes 3 HW banned people