Legal Stuff about EULA.

[2FACETANNER]

1)I have a legal question for all the haxors who know law. As you know you cannot click on the "NEXT" button when you try to install PB without agreeing with EULA. Now imagine this, you find a way to hax through the installation program so that you can continue the installation even without agreeing with the EULA. Thus, when PB bans you or something like that you can sue them and say what they did was illegal because they broke into your computer. While PB in their defense will say that you signed (checked actually) the agreement, but you will show that you did not and bypassed the installation program. Can the court dismiss the case because what you did was illegal?--In reality you did nothing illegal because this entire hax was done through your computer without internet?

2)How can PB ban for using Unscripted bots, they DO NOT interfere with PB because they are done through your computer and banning will be a violation against the EULA contract?

[Shuva]

If you install software on to your computer, the law assumes that you have read the EULA. Modifying the game files to bypass the "Next" button would violate the EULA of the game itself.

[n()()b_Power]

1)I have a legal question for all the haxors who know law. As you know you cannot click on the "NEXT" button when you try to install PB without agreeing with EULA. Now imagine this, you find a way to hax through the installation program so that you can continue the installation even without agreeing with the EULA. Thus, when PB bans you or something like that you can sue them and say what they did was illegal because they broke into your computer. While PB in their defense will say that you signed (checked actually) the agreement, but you will show that you did not and bypassed the installation program. Can the court dismiss the case because what you did was illegal?--In reality you did nothing illegal because this entire hax was done through your computer without internet?

2)How can PB ban for using Unscripted bots, they DO NOT interfere with PB because they are done through your computer and banning will be a violation against the EULA contract?

PB could do whatever they want any case against them will be thrown out. Nobody can put up a case that would persway anyone to believe the HW banning is against our rights or against the law.

As far as what your saying its against the law and most definetly would throw your case out if it was even considered...

Should be in the Punkbuster Discussion area...

[barry_white]

Moved to the right forum.

[Nseven]

I only agreed to the very first version of their eula, I have never seen the latest. I can't remember being asked if I agree to it.
PB can not do anything they want because the law may be different in other countrys. I can agree to to the eula but parts of it may still not be valid in my country (europe).
I can not just write an application and put garbage into my eula and people have to agree else they are not allowed to use it, thats BS.
PB decided to go a dangerous way by using a kernel driver, violation of privacy is not getting the hash of your hdd, it is the the spyware kernel driver itself, like a rootkit that drills into your operating system while PB is enabled. About hwban for unscripted bots, they may claim you try to hide something this would be a violation against the eula contract. Of course this isn't true.

[BlackDove]

Another thing to point out is PB's "silent" update mechanism. Let's say that the latest version of PB is updated so that the screenshot feature takes pictures regardless of whether the game window is active. With silent updating, the user has no idea about the new features or what they do. Only by visiting Even Balance's website, may the user find an actual update description (permitting the update is not under "maintenance release" category). When new features are implemented, a modified EULA should be presented containing applicable update information.

Using PunkBuster implies to a user's agreement to the EULA. Because PB is optional, the user is not forced to use PB when engaging in online play. Server administrators make the decision on whether or not to allow PB. A similiar response can be found in generic messages sent by EB. For that reason, Even Balance claims no responsibility.

As with most arguments about legal rights and anti-cheat programs, legal fees are more expensive than bypassing a ban.

If I had designed PB, a concise version of the EULA would appear in the console upon every connection to a new server.

[mcMike]

I only agreed to the very first version of their eula, I have never seen the latest. I can't remember being asked if I agree to it.
PB can not do anything they want because the law may be different in other countrys. I can agree to to the eula but parts of it may still not be valid in my country (europe).
I can not just write an application and put garbage into my eula and people have to agree else they are not allowed to use it, thats BS.
PB decided to go a dangerous way by using a kernel driver, violation of privacy is not getting the hash of your hdd, it is the the spyware kernel driver itself, like a rootkit that drills into your operating system while PB is enabled. About hwban for unscripted bots, they may claim you try to hide something this would be a violation against the eula contract. Of course this isn't true.

I also live in Europe and we basicly laught to the EULA's software-publishers in US makes us to agree. (For example opening the shrinkwrapped software-package means you have agreed - lol). In here that don't mean anything "by law" but that's another issue ;)

There are two issues where I see PB is going to a very wrong direction...

1) Permitting user to use AV/AT-software. For example certain firewalls, anti-rootkit tools, etc. There is even statement in PB-forums from devs that you just need to disable your firewall and av-software during playing and it's not so big deal- HUH!?!
They add _some_ of those programs to whitelist which basicly means they CONTROL what software you can or cannot use in your computer! Think about it.

2) Banning individual piece of HW. Is there more stupiest idea than banning HDD which will travel (sold) from user-to-user and prevents totally innocent people playing ANY PB-enabled game? Damnit but I would love to see some GameSpy or other online-gaming site's editor get one of those accidentally.
Also the HW-banning among with their kernel-driver enforces you to play the game in ADMIN-rights. I know it's not big deal in windows-world but you expose your computer to much bigger security-risks.

[Galaktikos]

mcMike You have 100% reason !
Practices by applicable evenbalance in program punkbuster, they are illegal !
I had to write intention before moment for EB, however "Trouble Ticket System is Currently Off-line" lol ?
http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php?page=info.php

EB probably, not knowledge as they make very evil.

It is necessary to occupy at the end of seriously this case! :mad:

[2FACETANNER]

But you have to agree that some bans PB does it a violation! The haxors which make these programs make them in such a way that they would not violate and cause HW ban. The dev's got REALLY angry so decided to "nuke" us. Somebody should complain about their legals.

[dolosus]

PB does not agree to the EULA, we do. Some ppl seem to think agreeing to this EULA is some sort of deal beween them and pb. Other than spelling out the specific terms of what your allowed to use their software for, it has no impact on how they will react to cheat. They can decide tomorrow to HW ban for all cheats. I doubt you will ever see that, but it is not illegal.

I also doubt you will see some widespread abuse on pb's part. Whats the incentive to do that? All that will do is lose contracts for them.

Nothing is going to come of their banning HW as far as innocent users is concerned. They are always going to turn that back to the person who sold the hardware.

Anyway, none of it matters really. New cheats wll come out, new spoofers new hacks. They cant be stopped, pb will just keep doing their thing to make it difficult. Circles never end.

[mcMike]

They can decide tomorrow to HW ban for all cheats. I doubt you will ever see that, but it is not illegal.

Of course it's not illegal. It's "free" software and they specifically reserved the rights to ban you for whatever reason or no reason at all. If YOU cheat they can do what ever they feel to YOUR license of THEIR software.

Nothing is going to come of their banning HW as far as innocent users is concerned. They are always going to turn that back to the person who sold the hardware.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It is an issue that has not yet actually faced. Getting banned HW in your hands via second-hand is one way but that can also happen if someone spoofs your HDD-serial or NIC and gets it banned. (Like I said previously. That is already done).

I also believe it is unlikely anything will happen but I feel they have gone little bit too far with this. It _can_ strike back if the HW-ban happens to "wrong" innocent person.

If you feel 100% confident they can do what ever they wish think what would happen if for example Microsoft start using same policy. They detect that you used pirated XP and would BAN all your hardware so that you couldn't ever use XP with any piece of that HW anymore. Now, think about that HW is sold and goes in the hands of innocent people. Do you think there wouldn't be any public debate?

[babo]

I totally agree with mcmike on this and linux security issue.

[Galaktikos]

Well ,we own irrefutable arguments be on activity with law incompatible which (evanbalance)

It is necessary to act ! And that with this circus complete fund we EB !! :mad:

As well as other, I support completely mcMike !

mcMike You have idea ? Make that ? It is necessary to complete with at the end it. EB it must know that it makes evil .

[n()()b_Power]

Do you really think that a company as large as EvenBalance hasnt already explored this avenue? It doesnt matter what country your in, if you accept a EULA from a company that the EULA originated from, the EULA is applicable to you. You dont have to play this game or any other game that is made. If you choose to play, then you accept the consequences. Like i have stated before, we as a cheating community are very small compared to the Non-Cheat community. Its something like less then 10% . There is no way that HW bans are illegal, or in anyway will a case be taken to trail because of HW bans. Either get around them, or stop playing on punkbuster servers.

[Galaktikos]

Do you really think that a company as large as EvenBalance hasnt already explored this avenue? It doesnt matter what country your in, if you accept a EULA from a company that the EULA originated from, the EULA is applicable to you. You dont have to play this game or any other game that is made. If you choose to play, then you accept the consequences. Like i have stated before, we as a cheating community are very small compared to the Non-Cheat community. Its something like less then 10% . There is no way that HW bans are illegal, or in anyway will a case be taken to trail because of HW bans. Either get around them, or stop playing on punkbuster servers.
I used cheats in only AAo ... however, I have completed with duping over year ago, in like games ET, B2, JO, never unused cheats ... however, I can not play these games already, and if EB It will return money for such shopping of game me as Quake4, Battlefield2, Join Operations, CoD2 ?? Shit ! AAo is fuc**ng free game, but I on money issue great deal orginal game which lean it wh*re EB ! :teeth: And please, EB return it me money?
Stop defending EB because does not have who... pR0gramers EB are weak piteously so, that other nothing has remained as creation of system memorial - HW banned.

[n()()b_Power]

I used cheats in only AAo ... however, I have completed with duping over year ago, in like games ET, B2, JO, never unused cheats ... however, I can not play these games already, and if EB It will return money for such shopping of game me as Quake4, Battlefield2, Join Operations, CoD2 ?? Shit ! AAo is fuc**ng free game, but I on money issue great deal orginal game which lean it wh*re EB ! :teeth: And please, EB return it me money?
Stop defending EB because does not have who... pR0gramers EB are weak piteously so, that other nothing has remained as creation of system memorial - HW banned.

Just because you are hardware banned doesnt mean that you "Cant play the game" You can still play every game available you just cant play on punkbuster servers. Its the price of cheating ... you all knew this. Im not defending EB but im not allowing myself to soak in an alternative reality. I got HW banned ... but now im not. I did research and trial and error. I can play on PB servers if i want to because i did what was needed, instead of spending time on something i have no realistic control over.

[2FACETANNER]

1)Do you think AA was released for free so PB came
"spy" on your computer easily. That is what I think, but I agreed because there is nothing valuable on my computer (besides for some: Credit card numbers, FBI files, falsified passports, stolen e-mail accounts :)) and it was free so I had to get it. You agree?

2)I started playing since 2.3 and without a doubt this is the strongest PB has ever been.

[Galaktikos]

I have patience too, which has expired already ...
That curious EB It will say on attack DDoS by 24 hours, there will be my caution for EB! :mad: End of fun, It is necessary to proceed for actions!

[mcMike]

mcMike You have idea ? Make that ? It is necessary to complete with at the end it. EB it must know that it makes evil .

Sorry guys but you have understood me wrong here.
I have no interest raising this issue to "public" nor going against EB.
I was HW-banned and got around it (as it's really easy actually).

My point is that they have moved to area which will very soon raise the interest of gaming-media. The security/privacy-issues alone are one that gets attention if brought to right people. The unfair HW-banning of innocent people WILL strike back someday.

It doesnt matter what country your in, if you accept a EULA from a company that the EULA originated from, the EULA is applicable to you.

Actually no.
The EULA needs to have backing of _local_ laws. If it doesn't it don't apply.
But in this case the EULA's consequences to terminate license will apply. However if they'd say in the EULA that you need to pay fee if you get cought and that would be valid in original country it would't be valid here.
It's the same case in EULA's of sw-packages.
The package EULA claims that if you open shrikwrapped package you can't return the game. Even if that is valid in some countries it doesn't matter since it's not valid here and I can return the game if it doesn't work in my computer no matter what EULA says.

Also, their EULA lost all it's validity when they have changed it singlesided (as nSeven already pointed out). Even if you agreed to original EULA that doesn't mean you have agreed to all the changes that have been made after that without EVEN SHOWING the new EULA to you.
But only thing they can do is terminate the license and well... thats what they do. However if you would've paid for the software they couldn't do that.